Friday, 29 August 2008

GIVE THEM HELL, PUTIN...

Mutley: “Well you know a lot about politics but unless you are suggesting a
cataclysmic nuclear exchange then in a military sense the Russians lose every
time. ...If we are going to talk about like weapons and war and stuff then I
will win by the way - you have wandered into my territory.”

Nor is all this this about military conflicts, Mutley. It’s just all about adding fuel
to the fire. Besides, theories of Nato’s state-of-the-art weaponry are a weak
basis for discounting the power of endurance and will. And here the Russian
Army excels.

Let’s face it, in 1941 it was expected the Red Army would collapse in a
matter of weeks against the overwhelming power of the Wehrmacht divisions.
Barely two years later they were driving the Panzers back, having contained over
250 German divisions, while the combined Allied armies up to the invasion of
Sicily, had only faced the few vastly undersupplied divisions of Rommel's Afrika
Korps.

Of course, there was Hamburg in late July of 1943, when the
RAF annihilated more people in one stroke than would perish in Britain during
the entire war.

You may well think, then, that the tide turned at El Alamein. Or that
Britain’s principal ally, the US, supplied the major military
muscle for putting paid to the Nazi armoury. But the Russians - with no concern
for Allied pretensions - are absolutely adamant that the actual rout came in the
Soviet Union, the real turning-point of the war. On 19 November 1942,
simultaneously with the arrival of winter, the Soviet counteroffensive had
began. It resulted in the encirclement of the German Sixth Army, parts of the
Fourth Army, and a number of Romanian auxiliary brigades - a total of 250,000
soldiers. The greatest defeat the Wehrmacht had yet sustained. With that, the
high tide of German military victories had come and gone. Hitler’s vast
mechanized war-machine in the East had not only been bled dry in the horrendous
winter battles but was about to be turned back. By the end of January 1943 the
Russians had substantially defeated the invading host. The collapse of the Axis
alliance followed as a matter of course. For their own part the Americans are
deservedly conscious of the competing burden of the Pacific theatre of war,
while D-Day, like a culminating fireworks display, has been built up as the
decisive moment.

Again, I add but one word: Bollocks!

What is never acknowledged is that without the Red Army grinding into
dust 150 crack Nazi divisions, the Allies would never have landed in Normandy.

Mutley: “If Russia attacks NATO it signs its own death warrant.“

Are you quite sure we are here talking about the same multi-national
Nato force, Mutley, that is struggling to keep the hapless mule-skinners of
Afghanistan from kicking their arse. Or are you thinking of England, a nation
where children are outnumbered by pensioners clamouring for their heating money
- while Russia turns off fuel supplies? Germany? - there is military history, it
is true, but little heart, and the French lost theirs at Dien Bien Phu. Italy -
to them at least goes the honour of the last successful cavalry charge in
military history. Out into the fields they went, on 24 August 1942 , on the
banks of the River Don, with no objective in mind save for a famous victory and
personal oblivion...

I, for one, feel perfectly capable of judging events on their own merit regardless of being accused of supporting the Evil Empire. Then, of course, I could muse about the cold war actually being a battle between hostile conglomerates. But I guess what I really mean is, that I can’t stand
political nancy-boys claiming the moral high ground while talking rhetorical
gibberish.


Over to you Mutley...





18 comments:

Richard Havers said...

10 out of 10 for your use of bollocks....masterful.

Misstressful?

10 out of 10 for a very well argued case.

I'm shoulder to shoulder with Dreamy...will that make me safe from harm?

i'll protect you from the hooded claw,
keep the vampires from your door...

Dreams are like angels
They keep bad away....

mutleythedog said...

I can’t stand
political nancy-boys claiming the moral high ground while talking rhetorical
gibberish.


Blimey! Is that me?

The 'Russian Army excels'? Not three words which it is easy fit in one sentence. Have you heard the term 'Dedovschina' - did you know Russian soldiers have gone awol in South Ossetia? Have you seen accounts of soldiers looting worthless goods to sell back home?

I love your history lessons - they manage to be patronising and misleading at the same time. Who exactly expected the Red Army to collapse in weeks in 1941? I am not going to bothered citing sources but whilst British intelligence analysis was mixed a lot was a very accurate prediction of what would follow the NAZI attack on our ally. Interestingly the Russians have recently deployed the same kit as in 1941 - well close to the same kit. I certainly have seen 40s era field artillery pieces being dragged about the place in Georgia.

the hapless mule-skinners of
Afghanistan


That would be the same ones the might of Russia crushed in 1979? And the British Empire solidly defeated when Afghanistan became a crown colony...

Oh those ones. Silly old NATO not being up to replicating those victories. Besides I think you misunderstand the point of that conflict altogether... I doubt if obliterating the Taliban was ever a goal really. Just keep them teetering on the verge of destruction and pulling in more volunteers. Better than them heading this way hay? The Taliban as an organised military force died last year when the Brits assasinated all its leaders. A lot more effective than either Russia or the Victorians. Thats why you have the exploding children and IEDS/roadside bombs these days. You do remember they used to have a state to play with there don't you?

Insulting England is funny of course. This country is certainly vulnerable on the energy front. One could note that alcholics outnumber children in Russia ... one might also note that oil and gas are only worth something if someone wants to buy them. In this case the wests pensioners get chilly whilst the Russians run out of money and they go back to trading potato futures...

On military matters - other than using illegal cluster munitions - the Ruskies have nothing post c. 1991. A lot of the tanks it sent to Georgia are in museums around the world. Its great to see antiques so lovingly maintained... oh, they are absolutely worthless against any modern fighting force. A few Eurofighters could have settled the whole thing in Georgia without ever puttting a NATO soldier in harms way. Georgia only had modern Police and Firebrigade equipment - we kindly sent them the Fire Engines by the way.

US Special Forces are on the ground in Georgia and a public response would be nice wouldn't it? A proportionate one of course...

How about NATO sending a Naval battle group to the Black sea? Well the usless countries with their hearts and what not ripped out at Bumdik Fak and cavalry charges or wherever wouldn't do that would they?

Oh they did ...LINK

Selena Dreamy said...

Blimey! Is that me?

No - that's Miliband!

Jonathan said...

'Hitler Knows that he will have to break us in this Island or lose the war.'
Winston Spencer Churchill June 18th 1940

In this knowledge Hitler was a clever man. Luckily for us, however, too often for his own good and for that of his Reich, he was a silly man. The failure of Operation Sealion. Is not this the roots of the turn?; he said, wanting to just ask a question, not beat his breast patriotically?

A successful defeat of Britain would have put the resources of the British Empire at his disposal. That means our outposts in India and The Middle East, domains menacingly poised to Stalin's perception, I would have thought. Keeping up the Soviet pact pretense a couple of years longer, with a British Empire either on his side or decisively at heel. Then let us imagine what Hitler would have made of the Russians.

I am presuming, of course, that Hitler could have broken us in this Island if he'd tried a bit harder. I can't help supposing this is indeed the case - even though this does not detract from our performance as resistors. I suspect We were helped by Hitler's abiding, romantic (and silly) supposition that we might still voluntarily have yet come over to his side without need of his achieving our defeat.

Selena Dreamy said...

Mistressful

10 out of 10 for the creation of that, Richard. One could make a lot of it...

I'm shoulder to shoulder with Dreamy..

What can I say? When evil combines, the good must associate - or words to that effect. Somebody said that. Was it Tom Paine...?

Selena Dreamy said...

gimme a moment, Mut - I'll get back to you...

Selena Dreamy said...

“I can't help supposing this is indeed the case - even though this does not detract from our performance as resistors.”

Absolutely not!

'Let us therefore brace ourselves to our duties, and so bear ourselves that, if the British Empire and its Commonwealth last for a thousand years, men will say: “This was their finest hour!”' (Radio Broadcast, 18 June 1940)

Here, indeed, in the pride and defiance of one of the world’s masterpieces of political oratory, was encapsulated “that ardent Spirit of Liberty and that undaunted Courage in the Defence of it, which,” as Benjamin Franklin had once felt it necessary to record, “has in every age so gloriously distinguished Britons and Englishmen from all the Rest of Mankind”.

And I have nothing to oppose it!

Dreamy

Selena Dreamy said...

Have you seen accounts of soldiers looting worthless goods to sell back home?

No corn-fed sissies here. Just like 1942. The Iwan survives on dry bred and moonshine. He’ll tear your heart out for a piece of meat!

Who exactly expected the Red Army to collapse in weeks in 1941?

Surely an awkward choice of question. And I don’t mean to patronise, but it is hardly possible to overlook that this very anticipation proved to be fatal to the enterprise! The German divisions were not even equipped for taking the fight into the winter.

That would be the same ones the might of Russia crushed in 1979? And the British Empire solidly defeated when Afghanistan became a crown colony...

...makes you wonder...doesn’t it?

The Taliban as an organised military force died last year when the Brits assasinated all its leaders.

"Assassinated"! That is the sad and tragic truth! And I thank you for that. All that remains now is to make war on an entire tribal culture in which everyone is a Taliban at heart ...and the Tommies have allowed themselves, no doubt for the best of reasons, to be enrolled in the great American conspiracy to democratise Islam. It's Madness!

A few Eurofighters could have settled the whole thing in Georgia without ever puttting a NATO soldier in harms way.

Yep: that’s the kind of computerised war-game philosophy which will come home to roost! It cannot survive a moment's reflection!

How about NATO sending a Naval battle group to the Black sea? Oh they did

And who do you think is going to blink first...?

Thank you for your effort. I’ve had some worthy challenges, but this wasn’t it, Mutley - let's go back to making whoopy...whaddaya say?

elberry said...

True, the Russian spirit, or perhaps the willingness of the Russian grunt to be herded in the direction of the enemy, was indomitable. But that was more than 60 years ago. The British are now a race of idle good-for-nothings, so who knows what 60 years has done to Ivan?

Morale, spirit, is certainly important, especially in infantry, but so are armaments, discipline, lines of supply, ammo, etc. etc. The Finns held off a Russian army 4 times their size in the Winter War partly because of their sisu (guts, obstinacy), but also because the Russians were hopeless about supply, and were unprepared for the Finnish winter. When the Russians got their act together the Finns were finished.

Richard Havers said...

I knew that misstressful didn't look right!

10 out of 10 for alleviating my dyslexia!

mutleythedog said...

Have you seen accounts of soldiers looting worthless goods to sell back home(SniP )

No corn-fed sissies here. Just like 1942. The Iwan survives on dry bred and moonshine. He’ll tear your heart out for a piece of meat!


You do like manly fellows don't you?- however in the real world soldiers prefer having supplies - petrol, food, pay - and whatnot.. helpful for daily activities..

Who exactly expected the Red Army to collapse in weeks in 1941?

(SNIP)Surely an awkward choice of question. And I don’t mean to patronise, but it is hardly possible to overlook that this very anticipation proved to be fatal to the enterprise! The German divisions were not even equipped for taking the fight into the winter.


Well obviously Putin - sorry Hitler - (Putler ?? Hitlin??) expected to win - but you ignored my illustratable point that the British intelligence services expected Hitler to go to his doom in 1941. They had read about Napoleon I expect...

That would be the same ones the might of Russia crushed in 1979? And the British Empire solidly defeated when Afghanistan became a crown colony...

(SNIP)...makes you wonder...doesn’t it?


Make me wonder why you sing the praises of the Russian army when they lost so pathetically in Afghanistan but later in your remarks criticise NATO for winning?

Odd.


The Taliban as an organised military force died last year when the Brits assasinated all its leaders.

(SNIP)"Assassinated"! That is the sad and tragic truth! And I thank you for that.


Is that an argument? For what? Nato should refrain from killing the enemy?

Very Odd.

Winning the war is what armies do you know...


All that remains now is to make war on an entire tribal culture in which everyone is a Taliban at heart ...and the Tommies have allowed themselves, no doubt for the best of reasons, to be enrolled in the great American conspiracy to democratise Islam. It's Madness!

Seems like a good idea to me..

A few Eurofighters could have settled the whole thing in Georgia without ever puttting a NATO soldier in harms way.

(SNIP)Yep: that’s the kind of computerised war-game philosophy which will come home to roost! It cannot survive a moment's reflection!


Is this an argument ? What for? Is it not manly and Hitler/Putin esque enough for you to actually do what soldiers do. That is defeat the enemy?

Very very odd.


How about NATO sending a Naval battle group to the Black sea? Oh they did

(SIP)And who do you think is going to blink first...?


Blinking is not a military manoevre - NATO didnt blink did it? I am sure that you are aware that NATO has rolling requests for access to the Black sea so it can move at any time.. its 'excuse' of pre-planned military training is not true. I have some photos of Americans on the ground in Georgia yesterday and this morning. To counter the Russian SS21s in Ossetia NATO has short range nuclear capacity in the battle group.



Thank you for your effort. I’ve had some worthy challenges, but this wasn’t it, Mutley - let's go back to making whoopy...whaddaya say?


No?

No doubt because you wish to argue about the 'philosophy of war' or possibly ' war as an art form' or some other such meaningless shit, amusing for you no doubt? Or at least intellectually diverting. Menawile NATO will win wars and keep you safe...
dont worry your pretty little head about it...

Jonathan said...

It is a peculiar and to me endearing characteristic of we English that we can both laugh at ourselves, with derision, and, in addition, not get easily offended, or offended at all, when laughed at by others.

As for foreigners' perspectives on us, the habit of their under-estimating us is enduring, well-attested, and in its own way faintly comic; and illustrated, for example, here (yet with a closing refrain of realistic caution):

Henry V Act III Scene VII

Constable of France. If the English had any apprehension they would run away.
Duke of Orleans: That they lack; for if their heads had any intellectual armour they could never wear such heavy head-pieces.
Lord Rambures: That island of England breeds very valiant creatures: their mastiffs are of unmatchable courage.'

Interestingly enough, given our theme, Orleans mentions the mouth of a Russian bear in the very next line! Check for yourself: http://bartleby.com/70/2937.html

Jonathan said...

'the great American conspiracy to democratise Islam. It's Madness!'

Seems like a good idea to me..

I think, I don't know (?) that Selena worries about the democratisation of Islam because she fears that, given the chance, the Muslim populations of Islamic countries would choose extremer, not less extreme, forms of Islam than those presently endowed upon them by their oftentimes autocratic rulers. One may reflect, for example, upon the Palestinians' choice to elect Hamas a few years back, and the example of Algeria. Certainly I know that moderates fear that Islamists are wanting to use their influence in Kuwait through the Kuwaiti Parliament to impose an even stricter Saudi-oriented religiosity.

I think that there may well be some truth in this anxiety, but I think it will depend upon the particular country and the influence that the mullahs have there over the people, and their brand of radicalism. I don't think democracy per se need lead to extremism; and one must always reckon, besides, with the uncertainty to which many a muslim in his heart of hearts may truly want an ever looser form of Islam but not feel emboldened or at liberty to say so, either in public, or even in the family.

To me, if there is to be a first step in the democratisation of Islam it should be the legalising and legitimising of apostacy from Islamic belief, such that if Muslims choose no longer to be Muslims, they can so choose without fear of religion sanctioned reprisals. If Islam is so wondrous, after all, what fear need Muslims have of any manner of mass departure? And as we are reminded by our Islamic neighbours on this our blue planet, somewhat often: 'Let there be no compulsion in Religion.'

After all, Christians don't (at least in this life) care if people want to stop believeing in Christ, though I grant, of course, that they used to.

Is it that even the devout lack confidence in their own belief deep down, that they want to make it an inescapable obligation for others, he asked curiously and with respect?

All Shook Up said...

I've no doubt, Mutley, that our lads would give the Ruskies a thrashing in a fair fight as long as (a) Leading Seaman Faye Turney and her chums were home on leave and (b) the war took place before 6.00pm so that the German and Dutch Armies could comply with Health and Safety requirements over fighting in the dark.

However, I tend to side with Dreamy's earlier point that it's hard to see Western politicians giving the green light to a scrap over incursions into Georgia and its ilk. To me, the breast-beating by Miliband, Sarko, etc. is hollow and I'm sure Putin knows (and is banking on) it.

Some game is being played out here.. I'm not privy to enough background to know exactly what it is although I can guess... but I think we should be able to sleep soundly for a long while yet, NATO and its kit or no.

Selena Dreamy said...

Balanced, as ever, ASU. No hyperbole in your speech.

Let’s face it, Mutley is absolutely right about Nato and its undoubted “technological” superiority. Whether this would pay off in a real(!!) war, is quite another matter. Nor is the issue military. At worst it is one of economic sanctions. But so far as Nato protecting my sleep is concerned, Nato’s expansive overtures are the origin of the problem, not the basis for a solution.

Selena Dreamy said...

"It is a peculiar and to me endearing characteristic of we English that we can both laugh at ourselves, with derision, and, in addition, not get easily offended, or offended at all, when laughed at by others."


Thank you for that, Jonathan!

...and in that spirit, Mutley, now that you have confounded a very clear subject, all I need to know -what does "SNIP" stand for?

xxx

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